The Madlanga Commission of Inquiry continued hearing evidence on Thursday with the public airing of a recorded cellphone conversation between former Investigating Directorate Against Corruption (IDAC) head Advocate Andrea Johnson and IDAC state advocate Drushantha Ramsamy, a recording that formed a central part of the day’s proceedings.

The commission heard the recording after Ramsamy testified that she decided to record the conversation because Johnson had already implicated her during earlier testimony before the commission.

According to Ramsamy, the call took place while Johnson was appearing before the commission. She told the inquiry that at about 3.10 pm, while she was consulting with one of the commission’s evidence leaders, Johnson phoned her.

Ramsamy said she believed it was necessary to preserve the conversation because Johnson had already “scapegoated” her during her evidence.

The recording played before the commission captured Johnson discussing the possibility of Ramsamy not testifying before the inquiry.

Ramsamy told the commission that one of the first remarks made by Johnson during the call was: “We’ve got to figure out how you don’t go.”

Ramsamy interpreted the statement to mean Johnson was looking for a way to prevent her from giving evidence before the commission.

The recording also captured Johnson making remarks about the commission itself. According to the evidence presented, Johnson described commissioners as “unprofessional” and alleged they laughed among themselves and made faces during proceedings.

She also expressed concern that the commission was going to “make our names s***”, according to the recording played before the inquiry.

The commission further heard that during the conversation Johnson sought to establish how IDAC obtained the names of the accused in the Brigadier Dineo Mokwele investigation.

Ramsamy testified that she told Johnson the names had come directly from Johnson herself on 5 December 2024.

She also disputed documents that had been presented to the commission.

Ramsamy testified that the Section 27 referral document submitted to the inquiry was not the same version she had relied upon during the investigation.

According to her evidence, the original Section 27 referral affidavit contained a reference to the Political Killings Task Team, commonly known as the PKTT, while the version before the commission did not.

She said the Section 28 authorisation she prepared was based on the original referral document available to her at the time.

Ramsamy also testified that after the arrests in the Mokwele matter, IDAC officials urgently began searching for the original Section 27 referral affidavit.

She referred the commission to an email she sent to Johnson and other officials stating that Johnson was the last known person to have been in possession of the original affidavit.

Ramsamy said the events surrounding the arrests appeared to contradict the contents of the Section 27 referral.

Justice Mbuyiseli Madlanga observed that somebody had probably lied. Ramsamy replied that she was trying to be polite in describing what had occurred.

Commissioner Sandile Khumalo questioned how investigators were able to continue with the Mokwele investigation and obtain arrests when the whereabouts of the original referral affidavit were unknown.

Ramsamy acknowledged that the question was relevant but said she was unable to explain how investigators proceeded without the original document.

She also testified that had she received correspondence containing information she disagreed with, she would have objected either by email or WhatsApp message.

Earlier in the proceedings, Ramsamy reiterated allegations that Johnson frequently changed decisions, leading staff to nickname her “Flip Flop Knee Jerk”. She maintained that Johnson often ignored IDAC’s standard operating procedures.

Ramsamy further alleged that Johnson and chief investigator Dylan Perumal used IDAC’s investigative processes in what she described as an orchestrated attack on National Commissioner General Fannie Masemola and Lieutenant General Dumisani Khumalo.

The commission also heard that a formal Rule 3 notice will be served on Johnson requiring her to respond to the fresh allegations raised during Ramsamy’s testimony.

The Madlanga Commission is continuing to hear evidence into the operation of IDAC and the handling of several investigations, including the Mokwele matter. Ramsamy remains under oath and is expected to continue her evidence before the commission.